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Author Topic: Forum reluctance! (& an O3 spiritual discussion)  (Read 31968 times)
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Jamesman
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« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2008, 01:42:31 PM »

I know I'm not gonna convince you of anything, but I'll just share this thought anyway.

Maybe it's just that I have a different tolerance level for this kind of thing, but O3 is well within the bounds of what I'd consider to be entertainment a theist can enjoy.  It simply offers a different perspective.  I mean, watching "The Ninth Gate" on TV makes me uncomfortable, because you actually get to watch people worshiping Satan.  O3 is nowhere near that.  It may not be pro-God, but it's not something that oooooooozes evil.  It's just a story, really.  I kinda hope you'll reconsider your choice not to listen to Dominici's stuff, but I also respect the fact that you're drawing a line for yourself and closely adhering to your beliefs. 

I understand all of that. Like I said earlier, with yet another perspective from CD, I may very well consider it. But I'm glad that I'm not being totally bashed for my beliefs. I know Charlie isn't trying to bash anyone or subliminally make fun of any religion, but this is a case where the specifics make for a tough decision, meaning not to listen to it.

Yeah, that does sound really close-minded, but just consider it being cautious, really. Nothing wrong or close-minded with/about that. Smiley

Just out of curiosity, though, if the next Dominici album is just a collection of songs that don't make any kind of religious statements, would you buy it?
I don't mind so much religious statements, but I know what you mean, and I would definitely buy it (presuming he isn't singing kid's songs or something to that effect). 
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« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2008, 04:16:50 PM »

Cool.   
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« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2008, 02:14:25 AM »

You know, it occurs to me that if your beliefs are strong,why would you be so afraid to hear something else?
Sounds rather retro to me, and EXTREMELY closed minded. Reminds me of some of the very dangerous radical  religious groups attitudes.
hmmmmm....SCARY!
 
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« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2008, 11:07:45 AM »

You know, it occurs to me that if your beliefs are strong,why would you be so afraid to hear something else?
Sounds rather retro to me, and EXTREMELY closed minded. Reminds me of some of the very dangerous radical  religious groups attitudes.
hmmmmm....SCARY!
 
My beliefs are strong, but I don't think it makes me close-minded. I try to look at anything for what it is, not for what I want it to be. I know it can come across as close-minded, but I really don't think it is. I do think that there are many absolutes in this world, so I try and go towards the truth.

I do love philosophy, and that is where I pretty much get my beliefs about having a purpose and God existing. And Christianity seems to make sense to me.
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« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2008, 11:13:25 AM »

Well, it's certainly not an uncommon position for bornagains to have. I remember a few years back, some fans of neal morse were throwing out his older cds cause they had become bornagains as well and therefore couldn't possibly keep a cd that contained the F-word in it as it was against the religion. That was a cd that they obviously had enjoyed before, enough so that they still were fans of the guy to that day, but all of a sudden the cd was prime for the heap because there was a newfound badness to it?

Man, you christian people don't know how easy you have it. You can turn on the tv, go to the record store, and whatnot, and be surrounded by pro-christian media at all times. Especially during holiday seasons like we're in now... Man, think how it would be for me should I take the stance that everything religious is evil and should be avoided at all cost - I would have to lock myself away!!

I'm of the opinion that if you ignore and shy away from stuff that has arguments against that which you beleive, you are only doing a disservice to yourself. It's really close minded to not take in that which is presented, and evaluate it properly.

I mean, this is a story. It's not like your worldview would change from it (unless you think the word has some magical power infused by evil that will "brainwash" you into thinking something else - but I know other texts I would point to that has THOSE features built in Wink). Surely if your beliefs are strong, this should not be a case at all. Why is it that religion ISN'T allowed to be made fun of?

Oh well...
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« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2008, 11:15:24 AM »

You obviously didn't read my earlier posts. Just scroll up and see my reasoning.
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« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2008, 11:22:02 AM »

Oh, I did read it. I still think you're close minded. An open minded person would not say "rather, I find it better for my beliefs to refrain from the music you have, but just for that reason, now that I know the story".

An open minded person who REALLY are searching for truth would NOT have a fixed set of beliefs that they work from and try to fit everything into those beliefs. That is what you are doing! An open minded person who REALLY are searching for truth would swallow EVERYTHING. And make up their mind AFTERWARDS. Coming in with a pre-concieved notion and judging that which you are presented based on those notions is close minded. You have the solution already, you just want things that confirm those "truths" that you have found, and want to ignore the other stuff.

If i presented you to a set of books discussing the origins of christianity, would you read them or not? If i presented you to a set of atheist books, would you read them or not?

I mean, surely you still listen to Dream Theater's Scenes From a Memory, even though that doesn't at all follow a christian mindset in the story - reincarnation isn't exactly something that is very christian at all...
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« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2008, 11:23:10 AM »

Man, you christian people don't know how easy you have it. You can turn on the tv, go to the record store, and whatnot, and be surrounded by pro-christian media at all times.

I don't understand this part.  Pro-Christian media?  Do you have some examples?  I mean, if I turned on the TV right now I'd see two people committing adultery on some soap opera.  That's not very pro-Christian at all.
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« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2008, 11:30:35 AM »

Oh, I did read it. I still think you're close minded. An open minded person would not say "rather, I find it better for my beliefs to refrain from the music you have, but just for that reason, now that I know the story".

An open minded person who REALLY are searching for truth would NOT have a fixed set of beliefs that they work from and try to fit everything into those beliefs. That is what you are doing! An open minded person who REALLY are searching for truth would swallow EVERYTHING. And make up their mind AFTERWARDS. Coming in with a pre-concieved notion and judging that which you are presented based on those notions is close minded. You have the solution already, you just want things that confirm those "truths" that you have found, and want to ignore the other stuff.

If i presented you to a set of books discussing the origins of christianity, would you read them or not? If i presented you to a set of atheist books, would you read them or not?

I mean, surely you still listen to Dream Theater's Scenes From a Memory, even though that doesn't at all follow a christian mindset in the story - reincarnation isn't exactly something that is very christian at all...

There is a big difference between not being pro-Christian and being anti-God (not talking about CD being deliberate about it).

I think you're just upset that I have different reasonings than you.
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« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2008, 11:34:48 AM »

But isn't per definition a person who is not a christian and "anti-god" person as well? Surely their mindset would be similar in any case, and i would think it's VERY hard to make a distinction. And again - isn't that like already having decided what the truth is and fitting everything into that truth, instead of actually searching for the truth? I think it's dishonest at best.

I'm not upset at all, why on earth would I be upset with someone I've never even met over words on the internet? If anything, I find it hilarious.


Phantasmatron: I guess it's more noticable when you're "anti-god" like me. There is a lot of stuff in the media that is significantly pro-christian (even though a lot of it is just generic too) - particularly of american origin. The point wasn't that it's out there though (which it is - just watch fox news for a few days) - but what I should've done if i were to react negatively to everything christian in the media...
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« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2008, 11:45:48 AM »

Meh, you seem to have no understanding of my viewpoint. Plus you just said you're anti-god, so it seems almost fruitless to try and give you my points, or I mean give you my points again, because I feel I was fairly sufficient in explaining myself the first time. But your anti-god agenda won't allow for my opinions to be taken seriously, so I probably won't respond to you again in this thread.

Telling me I'm close-minded? Yeah right.
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« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2008, 12:21:19 PM »

Wow, didn't expect to see Noxon here, probably don't remember me, but we've had some discussions in the past in and around DT.net I believe, good to have you here.

I like Noxon's statements about what it means to be open or close-minded, however I will say there are times when being somewhat close-minded is not a bad thing. I can not be sure that hitting myself in the nuts with a hammer would be bad for me, but I'm not about to make myself sure. I would agree that the United States has a pro-Christian spin to it, simply because the majority of the people here are Christian, so it is a natural happening.

I am personally an agnostic, however I'm in no way anti-religion or anti-god, and I believe whatever helps people through their day so be it, as long as it doesn't adversely effect myself or others negatively, be it through religious groups or some other sort of group. 
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« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2008, 12:32:33 PM »

But your anti-god agenda won't allow for my opinions to be taken seriously, so I probably won't respond to you again in this thread.

Telling me I'm close-minded? Yeah right.

Thank you for proving my point...


Nick: I'm sorry, I do not recall you right now... It surely must've been a few years back since i wasn't really active on dt.net (except in the chatroom, but theres a ton of people that've come through there that i can't really keep up anymore). But I am flattered that you remember me, most people do not Wink

About open-mindedness: it's not about accepting to do everything or even anything at all. It's about being able to accept information AND misinformation with an objective eye and making the best possible decision based upon your collective information. If someone says to me "read this, it'll prove that <insert something here> is real", i usually DO read it and take the information as it is. I am also able to weed through the information to find that which says something about the credibility of what I'm reading, and my natural curiosity also leeds me to investigate such things as possible origins, possible counterpoints and so forth. It's an intensive process to be sure, and I really can understand why people do not do this.

I do respect religious people. I do respect that they beleive. I do not, however, respect the belief they have. If you can see that distinction. I do not believe in god, and therefore I am "anti-god" in the sense that I will argue the likelyhood of non-existance thereof.
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« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2008, 01:04:34 PM »

I just took a moment to rename this thread.

I'm glad everyone is behaving in here. I was a little tense reading the last handful of posts but I'm glad to see that I didn't really have to be.

But let's not accidentally focus on Jamesman and make it personal please (no he didn't ask me to say that. Just being pro-active in my worrying like usual Wink )
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« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2008, 01:14:31 PM »

I don't really want to get into this, or be dragged in, but I think Charlie is right with this one.

I just find it unfortunate (though perhaps not closed minded) that you let a "message" get in the way of your music tastes. I don't like christian music usually, but I don't like it just because I don't like the music, not the message their preaching. I'm resilient enough not to be affected by their message. Actually, about two years ago I went to a church to watch a musician play, I was a little skeptical at first because I figured he'd preach and preach and I wouldn't enjoy myself since I hate having a message forced down my throat. But I was pleasently surprised to find that the guy wasn't forcing anything anywhere; he just seemed like a normal guy -- because he was a normal guy. I quickly realized that his religion didn't even matter, and that religion never usually matters. If he was trying to force something down my throat, he'd be an extremeist and I hate extremists, not christians (or other particular religions). So I was able to enjoy myself because I liked his music and he was a hilarious guy who had a lot of great stories.

I guess my point is that my passion for music overides anything else. Charlie could be preaching about how if we all hold hands and pray to god with one another that we would reach the afterlife, and I'd STILL buy his music, because I like his MUSIC. His beliefs and whatever else are irrelevent in my opinion. The only thing that would change would be that when I show people his music i'd just say "Yeah, I don't really agree with what he is saying, but its still amazing music regardless". And I'm not even atheist or "anti-god" or anything!

Charlie's story didn't offend me whatsoever anyway. Even if I was super christian (not that I am saying you are) I couldn't be offended in the first place, because it doesn't say anything about there being no god. The "creators" in the story could have been created by someone else as far as we know. They already said they didn't make the dinosaurs, so someone else did. Maybe evolution? Maybe god? Who knows, but you can take whatever stance on it that you like. Charlie's story is open-ended enough that you CAN'T really get offended from it. But what you CAN do is sit there in awe from the level of musicianship on the album, and that to me, is all that's important in something musical. If I wanted to hear about god or the absense of god, I'd go to a church, if I wanted to hear great music, I'd buy Charlie's CD. . . and since I have the entire trilogy, I guess you know where my priorites are.

Anyway, this probably came across as more agressive than I meant it to be, but I'm just trying to get my two cents in here. The story is brilliant, the music is great, and it paints a wonderful story; you'd be missing out if you decided to not buy it over something as silly as religon. So I'm glad you'll buy it now. To make a quick analogy before I finish my post, I guess listening to Charlie's trilogy is like enjoying a great movie. I'd go to the movie if it was awesome even if I didn't agree with the stance on a particular issue it was about. There is so much more to enjoy: the actor's performances, the brillance and cleverness of the shots, the amount of work that went into making it, etc. The same thing goes with Charlie's music; there is so much more than just a bunch of words. You'll see what I mean when you get it, hopefully you'll be pleasently suprised like I was with the christian musician.
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« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2008, 06:14:21 PM »

But your anti-god agenda won't allow for my opinions to be taken seriously, so I probably won't respond to you again in this thread.

Telling me I'm close-minded? Yeah right.

Thank you for proving my point...


Proving your point? Eh, I don't like to deal with people who call me close-minded when they seem to have an agenda to be close-minded themselves (being anti-god).

Edit: you know what though? Let's just put down those barriers, because I presume that you are a nice enough guy with a personal disdain for God. We can be friends on here. So what do ya say? Friends?
 
I don't really want to get into this, or be dragged in, but I think Charlie is right with this one.

I just find it unfortunate (though perhaps not closed minded) that you let a "message" get in the way of your music tastes. I don't like christian music usually, but I don't like it just because I don't like the music, not the message their preaching. I'm resilient enough not to be affected by their message. Actually, about two years ago I went to a church to watch a musician play, I was a little skeptical at first because I figured he'd preach and preach and I wouldn't enjoy myself since I hate having a message forced down my throat. But I was pleasently surprised to find that the guy wasn't forcing anything anywhere; he just seemed like a normal guy -- because he was a normal guy. I quickly realized that his religion didn't even matter, and that religion never usually matters. If he was trying to force something down my throat, he'd be an extremeist and I hate extremists, not christians (or other particular religions). So I was able to enjoy myself because I liked his music and he was a hilarious guy who had a lot of great stories.

I guess my point is that my passion for music overides anything else. Charlie could be preaching about how if we all hold hands and pray to god with one another that we would reach the afterlife, and I'd STILL buy his music, because I like his MUSIC. His beliefs and whatever else are irrelevent in my opinion. The only thing that would change would be that when I show people his music i'd just say "Yeah, I don't really agree with what he is saying, but its still amazing music regardless". And I'm not even atheist or "anti-god" or anything!

Charlie's story didn't offend me whatsoever anyway. Even if I was super christian (not that I am saying you are) I couldn't be offended in the first place, because it doesn't say anything about there being no god. The "creators" in the story could have been created by someone else as far as we know. They already said they didn't make the dinosaurs, so someone else did. Maybe evolution? Maybe god? Who knows, but you can take whatever stance on it that you like. Charlie's story is open-ended enough that you CAN'T really get offended from it. But what you CAN do is sit there in awe from the level of musicianship on the album, and that to me, is all that's important in something musical. If I wanted to hear about god or the absense of god, I'd go to a church, if I wanted to hear great music, I'd buy Charlie's CD. . . and since I have the entire trilogy, I guess you know where my priorites are.

Anyway, this probably came across as more agressive than I meant it to be, but I'm just trying to get my two cents in here. The story is brilliant, the music is great, and it paints a wonderful story; you'd be missing out if you decided to not buy it over something as silly as religon. So I'm glad you'll buy it now. To make a quick analogy before I finish my post, I guess listening to Charlie's trilogy is like enjoying a great movie. I'd go to the movie if it was awesome even if I didn't agree with the stance on a particular issue it was about. There is so much more to enjoy: the actor's performances, the brillance and cleverness of the shots, the amount of work that went into making it, etc. The same thing goes with Charlie's music; there is so much more than just a bunch of words. You'll see what I mean when you get it, hopefully you'll be pleasently suprised like I was with the christian musician.
I know what you are saying. But for me, nothing overrides my love for God. And like I have said, the music is INCREDIBLE. The singing is amazing. I have no problems except with that one thing. And I am normally not uptight about things, but this is one thing that does bother me. Whether somebody likes it or not, that IS my belief and opinion. Call me wrong, whatever.

Just to clarify: In 2006 I went through the whole extremist phase of being a Christian. I lost my best friend because of it, and others distanced themselves away from me. It was stupid on my part, and I deeply regret it. And, also long ago, I learned to just be easy with my beliefs. So all of this, all of this defense...it's not normally me in terms of music. In life, my priorities are God, friends/family, and music. And I REALLY love music, playing it and listening to it. So there is just a conflict here, and who knows, I may end up getting the CD, like I stated earlier.

I hope that clarifies some more things.
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« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2008, 07:29:37 PM »

Charlie could be preaching about how if we all hold hands and pray to god with one another that we would reach the afterlife, and I'd STILL buy his music, because I like his MUSIC. His beliefs and whatever else are irrelevent in my opinion.

So...if Dominici's next album had awesome music but lyrically was about his violent hatred of some specific minority and depicted gruesome murders and delightful descriptions of slaughtering children and raping women...you'd enjoy that?

Disclaimer:  I am in no way suggesting that any member of Dominici hates any kind of minority or is a proponent of rape or infanticide.   Cheesy

The story is brilliant, the music is great, and it paints a wonderful story; you'd be missing out if you decided to not buy it over something as silly as religon.

Frankly, this comment shocks me, considering your usual tactfulness.  Please don't trivialize and dismiss other people's beliefs like this.  "Silly?"  Seriously?  Religion tends to deal with pretty important things...you know, like the eternal fate of your soul.  If a religious person feels that hearing music they may enjoy could jeopardize an eternity in heaven, he'd be an idiot to actually listen to that music.

I'm not saying that this is the case here.  I don't think anybody's going to hell because of listening to Dominici.  But I feel like you're not giving the other side of the argument the credibility it deserves.  You're not even trying to see the opposite point of view.

Just because you don't happen to believe in a religion doesn't mean that it's something silly that should be a lower priority than music.   Smiley
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« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2008, 12:59:55 AM »

Would someone please  do me a HUGE favor and define "God" so I can know if  I am anti God or pro God for once?
 
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« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2008, 01:39:23 AM »

In the meantime,while I wait for the definition of the "God" word that we are all struggling over,I have this question and my disclaimer at the bottom-please read and think CAREFULLY before responding:
I am  more surprised and shocked that no one seems to have taken offense to This song:

"The Real Life "
              C.Dominici

The sun breaks through a tear in the clouds
A ray of hope in the darkness
The light cannot stay
To the black it gives way
The next is the real life, anyway

This world is but a stop on the journey
The path must be narrow and true
If I lose my way
I only can pray
The next is the real life, anyway


Everything will fade away when colors change to black
Everything will go that day and nothing will come back
Nothing will come back

The loss of this world will be trivial
Compared to what waits on that day
My kingdom come
My will be done
The next is the real life, anyway

The next is the real life, anyway

:::disclaimer::::
This is not me talking,it is the prisoner talking. He is referring to "My" kingdom (not "thy" kingdom as it is written in "The Lord's prayer") because he (if you heard part 1 you would know) now believes that he is the hand of God. He is obviously confused(not unlike the rest of us) about the answers to all of the questions we ask ourselves daily on the subject. "The hand of God" at the end of part one, is my version of Hamlet's "To Be or Not To Be". He is struggling at this point in the story, with the conflicting ideals of whether he wants to be true to his so-called "beliefs" or back off and save his material world life and carnal existence.He is a microcosm of mankind in the sense that he has gotten so mixed up with the anger,resentment  and confusion that he is torn between that and love and happiness options.He has almost forgotten what it is that he is so angry about. Like the rest of the real world is today.
This Trilogy is LITERATURE, NOT SCRIPTURE!
Let me repeat that:
This Trilogy is LITERATURE, NOT SCRIPTURE!!!
Please open your hearts and minds and use it for positive and "awakening" personal fuel.
That is what I intended,nothing more.
CD
 

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« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2008, 08:32:46 AM »

Would someone please  do me a HUGE favor and define "God" so I can know if  I am anti God or pro God for once?
 
Well, the God I am referring to is the one who brought us into this world, came into the world as a man to die for our sins, and is active with us and loves us.

I know the Trilogy isn't Scripture, but like I said, it's a conflict of interests in my mind. I wouldn't want to lie and say I bought it and listened and not tell you about something I didn't like; I believe in constructive criticism as well.  Smiley

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« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2008, 09:37:42 AM »

Would someone please  do me a HUGE favor and define "God" so I can know if  I am anti God or pro God for once?
 
Well, the God I am referring to is the one who brought us into this world, came into the world as a man to die for our sins, and is active with us and loves us.

I know the Trilogy isn't Scripture, but like I said, it's a conflict of interests in my mind. I wouldn't want to lie and say I bought it and listened and not tell you about something I didn't like; I believe in constructive criticism as well.  Smiley


The "God" you are referring to was actually known through out history as "The Son of God"
Are you sure you know the bible as well as you think?
 
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« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2008, 09:41:44 AM »

Quote :I am the way and the light. No man cometh before the father but through me"
                                                                                        Jesus Christ

Contradiciton?
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« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2008, 12:29:51 PM »

Would someone please  do me a HUGE favor and define "God" so I can know if  I am anti God or pro God for once?
 
Well, the God I am referring to is the one who brought us into this world, came into the world as a man to die for our sins, and is active with us and loves us.

I know the Trilogy isn't Scripture, but like I said, it's a conflict of interests in my mind. I wouldn't want to lie and say I bought it and listened and not tell you about something I didn't like; I believe in constructive criticism as well.  Smiley


The "God" you are referring to was actually known through out history as "The Son of God"
Are you sure you know the bible as well as you think?
 
The Lamb of God, The Bright Morning Star, the King of the Jews, The Image of the Invisible God, the Bridegroom, the Son of Man...Jesus Christ as the Son of god, I think I might know a thing or 2, but that is just speculation.  Wink
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« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2008, 12:53:28 PM »

Would someone please  do me a HUGE favor and define "God" so I can know if  I am anti God or pro God for once?
 
Well, the God I am referring to is the one who brought us into this world, came into the world as a man to die for our sins, and is active with us and loves us.

I asked for the definition of God. you defined him(above) as Christ,yet you acknowledge Christ as "The son of God"
Which is it?
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« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2008, 04:03:36 PM »

Would someone please  do me a HUGE favor and define "God" so I can know if  I am anti God or pro God for once?
 
Well, the God I am referring to is the one who brought us into this world, came into the world as a man to die for our sins, and is active with us and loves us.

I asked for the definition of God. you defined him(above) as Christ,yet you acknowledge Christ as "The son of God"
Which is it?

If this God dude is as all powerful as everybody says, I would imagine he'd be able to figure out a way to be his own son.
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