DOMINICI.COM
News:
Home FORUM Help Search Calendar Gallery Login Register *
Welcome to the Official DOMINICI Website and Forums!
Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Down
Add bookmark | Print
Author Topic: Science vs Religion  (Read 16921 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
nimrod
Resident Big Thinker
Forum Elder
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Age: 1120
Location: Cambridge, England
Posts: 249



« on: March 07, 2008, 07:07:09 PM »

In this thread I hope for people to discuss issues where Science and Religion disagree. Many people would probably say that Science and Religion are on opposite sides of the spectrum. Others might say that eventually Science will prove Religion to be correct about many issues. Then you get your Scientists who seek to show this and prove that God made the Universe. It's often a tricky topic so firstly should Science and Religion be mixed?

To get us started off I thought we could tackle the issue of healing. I heard it said recently that Science acknowledges healing because it cannot account for certain cases of patients recovering. As you can probably guess the person who said this leans towards the Christian viewpoint and although it is true that many Scientists admit there are physical recoveries they cannot explain I find it quite possible that this person heard it from a Christian Scientist. So do you think Science will find the answers to these anomalies or do healings really happen?

First p/r thread so let's have some serious discussion.
Logged

Join the DOMINICI Groups at: last.fm - Facebook - StudivVZ.net (German)
VFS
The Webmistress otherwise known as JustJen
Administrator
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Age: 44
Location: The WABAC Machine
Posts: 918


Do you think it was an inside job?


WWW
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2008, 09:34:22 AM »

I think that anything perceived as Godly intervention or miracles or magic or supernaturalism (new word!) is in fact derived in some way from the 80% or so of the human brain that science doesn't understand yet. Yet.

I would even argue that everything in God's creation is a result of a scientific process.... put in place by God.
Logged


Join the DOMINICI Groups at: last.fm - Facebook - StudivVZ.net (German)
nimrod
Resident Big Thinker
Forum Elder
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Age: 1120
Location: Cambridge, England
Posts: 249



« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2008, 09:48:49 AM »

I would even argue that everything in God's creation is a result of a scientific process.... put in place by God.

So you are saying that God used Science to create the Universe?
Logged

Join the DOMINICI Groups at: last.fm - Facebook - StudivVZ.net (German)
axeman9182
Official Minister of Awesome
Forum Elder
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Age: 30
Posts: 176


in the bed in the car up against the mini bar


« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2008, 09:52:22 AM »

I'll say I'm roughly where VFS stands..... I believe in a God but that's about it. I don't believe much in the way of miracles, and I'm sure there's usually some kind of explanation for them (even if we don't know about it)
Logged

now taking preorders for regular and deluxe model pornicorns
Jamesman
Crown Caster
Inactive
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 113



« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2008, 09:57:34 AM »

From my knowledge, miracles are things that defy natural laws, that go out of  bounds of what should happen and only happen.

I think healings can fall into this category, certainly and hypothetically, but the knowledge that it has happened might be very limited. God could manipulate a cancer to go away, but a doctor might ascribe the going away to good timing with chemotherapy, for example. Sometimes miracles don't seem so miraculous, otherwise people wouldn't have a disbelief in God.
Logged
VFS
The Webmistress otherwise known as JustJen
Administrator
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Age: 44
Location: The WABAC Machine
Posts: 918


Do you think it was an inside job?


WWW
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2008, 10:23:48 AM »

I would even argue that everything in God's creation is a result of a scientific process.... put in place by God.

So you are saying that God used Science to create the Universe?

I'm saying that I consider just about everything explainable by science, even that which we cannot explain YET, going all the way back to the creation of the universe... but I think the REASON that is possible is because that prime mover known commonly as "God" planned it that way.
Logged


Join the DOMINICI Groups at: last.fm - Facebook - StudivVZ.net (German)
VFS
The Webmistress otherwise known as JustJen
Administrator
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Age: 44
Location: The WABAC Machine
Posts: 918


Do you think it was an inside job?


WWW
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2008, 10:24:27 AM »

From my knowledge, miracles are things that defy natural laws

.. as we currently understand them.
Logged


Join the DOMINICI Groups at: last.fm - Facebook - StudivVZ.net (German)
axeman9182
Official Minister of Awesome
Forum Elder
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Age: 30
Posts: 176


in the bed in the car up against the mini bar


« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2008, 10:27:03 AM »

Double post. Postwhoring. Ban't
Logged

now taking preorders for regular and deluxe model pornicorns
VFS
The Webmistress otherwise known as JustJen
Administrator
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Age: 44
Location: The WABAC Machine
Posts: 918


Do you think it was an inside job?


WWW
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2008, 10:28:39 AM »

Double post. Postwhoring. Ban't

Watch it, I can junior mod you here too you know. Wink
Logged


Join the DOMINICI Groups at: last.fm - Facebook - StudivVZ.net (German)
axeman9182
Official Minister of Awesome
Forum Elder
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Age: 30
Posts: 176


in the bed in the car up against the mini bar


« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2008, 10:33:23 AM »

your threats of punishment don't scare me (you know what they do) Tongue
Logged

now taking preorders for regular and deluxe model pornicorns
VFS
The Webmistress otherwise known as JustJen
Administrator
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Age: 44
Location: The WABAC Machine
Posts: 918


Do you think it was an inside job?


WWW
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2008, 10:39:44 AM »

No more hijacking!! Go over to DTF to do that Tongue
Logged


Join the DOMINICI Groups at: last.fm - Facebook - StudivVZ.net (German)
Phantasmatron
Forum Elder
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Age: 30
Location: good ol' PA
Posts: 276


What the Jenkins?!


WWW
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2008, 11:52:43 AM »

From my knowledge, miracles are things that defy natural laws, that go out of  bounds of what should happen and only happen.

I tend to believe that God obeys natural, physical laws.  I figure miracles are mostly stuff that actually makes sense, but is beyond the knowledge of our scientific progress.  Although I have no idea how Jesus pulled off that walking-on-water bit.
Logged

That reminds me, I found your pants in the fridge this morning.

I have no idea what just happened, but I can only assume that I was an indispensable contributor.
VFS
The Webmistress otherwise known as JustJen
Administrator
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Age: 44
Location: The WABAC Machine
Posts: 918


Do you think it was an inside job?


WWW
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2008, 12:08:38 PM »

From my knowledge, miracles are things that defy natural laws, that go out of  bounds of what should happen and only happen.

I tend to believe that God obeys natural, physical laws. 

But why? Why would he stay within the constraints he made for mortal, fallible beings?

So then do you believe that he is timeless, or constrainted by our concept of past, present, and future as well?
Logged


Join the DOMINICI Groups at: last.fm - Facebook - StudivVZ.net (German)
ZeppelinDT
Resident Collectaholic
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Age: 35
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 263


Chaaaaaaaaaalieeee!


WWW
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2008, 12:33:01 PM »

Although I have no idea how Jesus pulled off that walking-on-water bit.

Maybe he had water skis and just didn't tell anybody.
Logged

One a scale from one to awesome, I'm super-great!
Phantasmatron
Forum Elder
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Age: 30
Location: good ol' PA
Posts: 276


What the Jenkins?!


WWW
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2008, 12:50:37 PM »

From my knowledge, miracles are things that defy natural laws, that go out of  bounds of what should happen and only happen.

I tend to believe that God obeys natural, physical laws. 

But why? Why would he stay within the constraints he made for mortal, fallible beings?

So then do you believe that he is timeless, or constrainted by our concept of past, present, and future as well?

For me, it's mostly just a personal reaction against some people's mysticism.  Whenever I hear somebody tell a particularly BS story about a "miracle" that happened to them, it feels wrong.  I think God is a god that makes sense.  I think that if he set up the rules of our world, he abides by them when he intervenes in it.  I'm tired of listening to people tell about miracles like they tell ghost stories.  It just doesn't feel right to me.  God is not spooky.

So maybe what I believe about miracles and natural laws isn't true.  But it's also not that important.  I'm not going to go to hell because I think God abides by the laws of physics.  I think there's a much higher risk of going to hell if I treat sacred things like campfire stories. 

And as far as God's timelessness, I have no idea.  I haven't put a lot of thought into it.  I guess I kind of assumed that he exists in the present like the rest of us, only he has perfect knowledge of the past and future.  I have absolutely no scriptural basis for that, so it's not exactly a belief I hold dear.

And, as always, all of that is just my humble opinion.
Logged

That reminds me, I found your pants in the fridge this morning.

I have no idea what just happened, but I can only assume that I was an indispensable contributor.
nimrod
Resident Big Thinker
Forum Elder
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Age: 1120
Location: Cambridge, England
Posts: 249



« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2008, 01:01:23 PM »

For me, it's mostly just a personal reaction against some people's mysticism.  Whenever I hear somebody tell a particularly BS story about a "miracle" that happened to them, it feels wrong.  I think God is a god that makes sense.  I think that if he set up the rules of our world, he abides by them when he intervenes in it.  I'm tired of listening to people tell about miracles like they tell ghost stories.  It just doesn't feel right to me.  God is not spooky.

So maybe what I believe about miracles and natural laws isn't true.  But it's also not that important.  I'm not going to go to hell because I think God abides by the laws of physics.  I think there's a much higher risk of going to hell if I treat sacred things like campfire stories. 

And as far as God's timelessness, I have no idea.  I haven't put a lot of thought into it.  I guess I kind of assumed that he exists in the present like the rest of us, only he has perfect knowledge of the past and future.  I have absolutely no scriptural basis for that, so it's not exactly a belief I hold dear.

And, as always, all of that is just my humble opinion.

Firstly, do you base your beliefs on Christianity, another religion or do you have your own ideas? If you base your beliefs on Christianity then for Christian theologians what is probably the basis of answering questions about God is that he abides outside of natural laws and that he is not confined to the past, present or the future and that he is not confined to the boundaries of what is logical.
Logged

Join the DOMINICI Groups at: last.fm - Facebook - StudivVZ.net (German)
VFS
The Webmistress otherwise known as JustJen
Administrator
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Age: 44
Location: The WABAC Machine
Posts: 918


Do you think it was an inside job?


WWW
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2008, 01:02:49 PM »

I think God is a god that makes sense.  I think that if he set up the rules of our world, he abides by them when he intervenes in it.

Hmmm.. *ponders*
Logged


Join the DOMINICI Groups at: last.fm - Facebook - StudivVZ.net (German)
VFS
The Webmistress otherwise known as JustJen
Administrator
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Age: 44
Location: The WABAC Machine
Posts: 918


Do you think it was an inside job?


WWW
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2008, 01:05:33 PM »



Firstly, do you base your beliefs on Christianity, another religion or do you have your own ideas?

I know this isn't aimed at me, but just for sake of clarity regarding my opinions, I was raised Roman Catholic, have read a healthy dose of classic western philosophy, and spent many years learning about the supernatural, but base everything I say and believe on gut instinct and what feels right to me, largely dependant on my base belief that whatever is responsible for ... THIS... most likely values kindheartedness, earnest attempts to learn, and openmindedness over anything else.
Logged


Join the DOMINICI Groups at: last.fm - Facebook - StudivVZ.net (German)
nimrod
Resident Big Thinker
Forum Elder
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Age: 1120
Location: Cambridge, England
Posts: 249



« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2008, 01:27:33 PM »



Firstly, do you base your beliefs on Christianity, another religion or do you have your own ideas?

I know this isn't aimed at me, but just for sake of clarity regarding my opinions, I was raised Roman Catholic, have read a healthy dose of classic western philosophy, and spent many years learning about the supernatural, but base everything I say and believe on gut instinct and what feels right to me, largely dependant on my base belief that whatever is responsible for ... THIS... most likely values kindheartedness, earnest attempts to learn, and openmindedness over anything else.

Thanks for clarifying your opinions - they say a woman's intuition is never wrong. However, although I agree with you when you say God (so named for the purpose of this discussion) values kindheartedness and earnest attempts to learn I have to question why this is your base belief - is it an assumption or hope?
Logged

Join the DOMINICI Groups at: last.fm - Facebook - StudivVZ.net (German)
Phantasmatron
Forum Elder
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Age: 30
Location: good ol' PA
Posts: 276


What the Jenkins?!


WWW
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2008, 02:34:33 PM »

Firstly, do you base your beliefs on Christianity, another religion or do you have your own ideas? If you base your beliefs on Christianity then for Christian theologians what is probably the basis of answering questions about God is that he abides outside of natural laws and that he is not confined to the past, present or the future and that he is not confined to the boundaries of what is logical.

I think I base my beliefs on Christianity.  But that doesn't mean much, in my opinion.  There's so much variety in Christianity.  So many different denominations believe such different things, especially when it comes to the nature of God.

To be completely honest, I should probably mention that I was raised Mormon.  And I still am Mormon, more or less.  So most of what I believe is probably heavily based in that.  But the past few years have been kind of a crisis of faith for me (except not as dramatic as I just made it sound), so I've been kind of branching out based on what makes sense to me and what feels right to me...pretty much what VFS was saying, only I haven't done quite as much study as she has. 
Logged

That reminds me, I found your pants in the fridge this morning.

I have no idea what just happened, but I can only assume that I was an indispensable contributor.
xoxoch
Forum Elder
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Age: 37
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 526



« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2008, 03:14:00 PM »

I'm an immunologist, I live in a world of cells, molecules and chemical reactions.. although lots of people might think that scientists do neglect spirituality it's actually not the case at all. it's in the nature of our curiosity to be open towards every possible option... in fact this is what we earn our money with.

there's been some great opinions already mentioned in this thread. I personally keep it with good old Einstein; everything is relative. I do believe that there is some kind of "god" but I don't think he's something "special." He/it might be bound to exist in order for the universe to exist, we just haven't understood the mechanism behind it.

What I really don't believe in is the concept of time as we perceive it. Assuming that "time" moves along a defined vector (since I'm not a maths person I'd call it "forward") confines us big time in interpreting situations that are hard to understand; I think that's acutally a huge part of what makes up "miracles". I'm always thrilled to read about progress to be made in that direction. I'm a huge fan of Steven Hawkins, for example, even though I mostly don't have a clue what he's talking about since this is waaay too maths and physics for me  Roll Eyes but I believe that's the way to go in the attempt to unravel the mysteries of our universe.

Coming form this more logical position I still like "spirituality" though. Like last night I drove home from my best friend's b-day party. I stopped at mcdonalds for a burger and fries but I forgot to order a drink (I'm sure the counter person asked me if I wanted one, but I automatically say "no thanks" to whatever they offer me  Wink So when I was back on the highway and halfway through my burger I became incredibally thirsty, of course. I fumbled around the back seat for I thought there might be a an old, half empty bottle of water or something. BUT I actually grabbed a cool, fresh can of coke, which I completely forgot about having there. WEll, then I thought THERE MUST BE A GOD  Grin Grin Grin


 o
Logged
charliedominici
Administrator
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Age: N/A
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 674



WWW
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2008, 03:31:30 PM »

I'm an immunologist, I live in a world of cells, molecules and chemical reactions.. although lots of people might think that scientists do neglect spirituality it's actually not the case at all. it's in the nature of our curiosity to be open towards every possible option... in fact this is what we earn our money with.

there's been some great opinions already mentioned in this thread. I personally keep it with good old Einstein; everything is relative. I do believe that there is some kind of "god" but I don't think he's something "special." He/it might be bound to exist in order for the universe to exist, we just haven't understood the mechanism behind it.

What I really don't believe in is the concept of time as we perceive it. Assuming that "time" moves along a defined vector (since I'm not a maths person I'd call it "forward") confines us big time in interpreting situations that are hard to understand; I think that's acutally a huge part of what makes up "miracles". I'm always thrilled to read about progress to be made in that direction. I'm a huge fan of Steven Hawkins, for example, even though I mostly don't have a clue what he's talking about since this is waaay too maths and physics for me  Roll Eyes but I believe that's the way to go in the attempt to unravel the mysteries of our universe.

Coming form this more logical position I still like "spirituality" though. Like last night I drove home from my best friend's b-day party. I stopped at mcdonalds for a burger and fries but I forgot to order a drink (I'm sure the counter person asked me if I wanted one, but I automatically say "no thanks" to whatever they offer me  Wink So when I was back on the highway and halfway through my burger I became incredibally thirsty, of course. I fumbled around the back seat for I thought there might be a an old, half empty bottle of water or something. BUT I actually grabbed a cool, fresh can of coke, which I completely forgot about having there. WEll, then I thought THERE MUST BE A GOD  Grin Grin Grin


Probably,since he protected you from plowing head on into an oncoming car while you were fumbling around the back seat while driving!
 Grin
Logged




"I'm just a singer in a rock and roll band"....
..................."The Moody Blues"
xoxoch
Forum Elder
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Age: 37
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 526



« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2008, 03:59:48 PM »



Probably,since he protected you from plowing head on into an oncoming car while you were fumbling around the back seat while driving!
 Grin
[/quote]

aww, look how he cares about me  Roll Eyes
Logged
zerogravityfat
Forum Elder
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 88



« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2008, 08:22:42 PM »

Double post. Postwhoring. Ban't

Watch it, I can junior mod you here too you know. Wink

pink junior mod his ass.
Logged

Matt Gillis
Forum Elder
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 253


« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2008, 04:03:00 PM »

WARNING! Long post will Follow this message!

Alright, as most of you know, I can get a little long winded, and an issue like this will certainly make me worse if anything  So bear with me.

To make this clear right off the start, I am not really any particular religion. But that isn't to say that I am atheist, nihlist, existentialist, etc. I just work things out on my own accord, and that doesn't mean I blieve in something, because truthfully, I do.

I actually wrote a fairly extensive paper on this about a year ago, but to save you many thousands of words, it basically just said "faith is faith and fact is fact". The basis of my paper had a lot to do with quatum mechanics and primordial nucleosynthesis (big bang) and lots of complex theories, but basically all my knowledge of these subjects is purely out of my own interest; I am a pretty smart guy, but I'm certainly no expert on this stuff (and as many quantum physicists will tell you; no one is an expert on these things). So using these theories, I said that no, the universe wasn't infinately old (which is something we know from chemical bonding, and how some chemicals that tend to bond to be stable, haven't bonded, proving that the universe actually does have an age) and that it had to start somewhere.

Now, our understanding of time as xoxoch said, is sketchy at best. In fact, some elementary particles (muons for example) are able to travel FORWARD in time, and show up in reactants before the reactants are even in contact with each other. That obviously sounds impossible how a particle could "time warp", but that is also assuming that time is linear, or that time even exists. Because, lets face it, in all honesty, time is something we made up.

So even though we don't know everything about science, it is still hard (even in theory) to explain how the universe was created. For example, if the big bang theory is right and our universe was created by a chemical reaction, how did that happen when technically the chemicals didn't even exist yet? Could it be those elementary particles jumping BACK in time? For me, that is where faith is. I believe that THAT is what god is. Whoever created the universe is god, and anything after that is science. But that doesn't mean that god told us what to do, or has white hair, or eight arms. I mean, god within all reasonability could be some monkey turning a jack in the box, which creates musical notes, which form the fabric of space in time: what I mean is that WE DON'T KNOW! All I can say is that, in my belief, SOME higher power exists, whether it even has conciousness let alone morals I can't say, but I know that my faith lies in the fact that something created the universe I live in.

Also, I think this "personal quest" for faith is the best a person could ever have. Honestly, I don't care if you are christian or muslim or whatever, all I care about is that you BELIEVE in it because you feel its right, not because someone told you to. I think mass religion has a lot of shortcomings, but it also has a lot of advantages too, and it can benefit us all; but please, don't shove it down my throat.

Oh, and the main reason for my post: Don't try to prove faith with fact (science), its pretty much the biggest mistake you can do in my opinion. Faith doesn't have to make sense, because its something you believe in, not something you need proven. Whenever someone is passionate about their relgion, I just smile and nod, and that's not because I am arrogant and think they are "simple minded" but its because I am happy for them. As soon as you start trying to prove religion, you are no longer believing, and you made religion completely useless. Faith is an accumulation of who you are and how you feel; your very heart and soul, and as soon as you start trying to prove that with science, it is no longer faith, but simply belief in what is logical.

So that's why I am pretty humble about this, I think everyone is entitled to their own belief, and one theory is just as sound as another. I just hope that we can look past faith when viewing a person and see them for their intellectual capability, not as some crazed pariah because their beliefs arn't the same as our own.

Anyways, that's my little blurb to say, thanks for your patience  Smiley
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Up
Add bookmark | Print
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.9 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc | Website © Copyright 2008 DOMINICI.COM
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!